I remember HIRE PURCHASE being introduced so that people did not have to save money in order to have the things they wanted but hired them until the periodic payments reached a contracted value and then the goods became the property of the hirer. This was a way of lending money and charging whatever the seller wanted to charge in the way of profit. There was a saying "If you don't pay we will take it away" and such contracts were enforced in the USA by brutal 'repo men' who have TV series showing them as some sort of role models.

Then came credit cards issued by money lenders. These made it possible to lend money to anyone for anything at huge interest rates that trapped people into a life of debt.

Buy to let schemes encouraged people to buy the property they were renting from councils and then to raise loans on the increased value of their home to buy cars and luxury items they would otherwise not be able to afford.

This gave the impression that everybody had become a capitalist and was thriving, whereas the illusion of wealth was being created by those issuing money as debt.

This was followed by pretending to 'privatise' education resulting in young people leaving academia as slaves to the money lenders.

The banks then give us an I.O.U. (a note they call currency) and we believe that this is money. We give this 'money' to the people who have built the house and we give the bank money to the value of twice or three times the amount that we believe they lent us. This system could not be taught in schools as the children would ask questions that would expose this as a scam. This was explained and debated in the UK parliament who did absolutely nothing about it.

Long term loans charge fees called 'compound interest' .... it is paying interest on interest. This is illegal in old Christian law and it is illegal in Islamic law. Money lenders may charge a fee based on their expenses and time but that is all.
The word 'interest' means a charge based on the value of the loan and the period over which the loan is repayable.
Real wealth is created by the workers who built the house but this is stolen by the money lenders.
The weakness in the system is that when a loan is paid off, that money ceases to exist. It came from nothing and returns to nothing. The system has a black hole.

The ugly face of capitalism is when people are slave to the landlords.

There is enough accommodation to house everyone in the world in comfort and warmth but you cannot make a profit out of people who have no money.

Home ownership and the property ladder are a scam that includes violence and death, think about it!

The winner claims ownership of land that he cannot use unless he has slaves to work it.

A poor man needs somewhere to rest and therefore builds a house that then becomes part of the land for which he must pay the landowner. Because he has no money he has to work to grow food and the landowner allows him to keep some of the food but the rest he must give to the landlord who feeds the army and police to enforce the laws that the landlord has made.

The landlord feeds his children and trains them how to use the system in such a way that they are obliged to obey the landlord until he dies.

The BBC reckons that every holiday costs the 'economy' 1.3 billion pound in lost earnings... or something. This is part of the governments 'be miserable until we think of something constructive' campaign.

The national debt is an illusion. We do not owe anything to anyone. When we borrow money from a bank they make it up in the form of debt. In reality we get the banks permission to build our own house! We give this 'money' to the people who have built the house and we give the bank real money of to the value of twice or three times the amount that we believe they lent us. This is called 'compound interest' .... check it all out. Real wealth is created by the workers and stolen by the money lenders.

Jill Hood ..........yeah....the 'economy' only exists in our own heads.....like everything does

but I am still worried how we are goint to pay for the holiday we are apparently taking today? I spose we should give lots and lots of money to Mr C so he can buy more weapons and kill a few foreigners. All prime ministers like doing that.

Financial capitalism has failed because the internet is a gigantic adding machine that calculates all monetary transactions instantly resulting in the death of the 'free market' and modern monetary theory.
Software is a list of instructions to this adding machine that is now called an algorithm and this can answer true or false to any question.
There is now software called blockchain that prevents cheating and theft, and can be used to enforce any 'smart contract' about anything without the interference of human emotions.

The landlord feeds his children and trains them how to use the system in such a way that they are obliged to obey the landlord until he dies.

Universal Basic Income, because it is essential for society and it is positive for the economy at the same time, thus, everybody wins...

Ty Warncken
Absolute Dribble!
Roger Alexander
That is a very witty comment but can you please explain your reasoning.
Ty Warncken
Roger Alexander, Nonsense! We all "store wealth" all the time, at all levels of earnings and wealth!
In the UK we pay tax and national insurance which is effectively savings to pay for our pension and health care!
Problem is the average worker gets a lot less than they put in!
A NMW earner will pay approx £171k in NI and tax in their working life, the state pension is £185 a week which is £9627 a year, you get that at age 66 currently, that age is likely to go up, UK life expectancy is 81, 15 years with state pension is £144k, the math is off!
The idea that poor people don't save is also ridiculous! A wealthy person is more likely to buy goods or services but they are also more likely to save and invest for their pension and future.
Wealthy people tend to teach their kids about money, savings, investments, markets and budgeting! Poorer people tend to over stretch themselves using doorstep loans to buy their kids Christmas presents! I've had friends who had only benefits as income and take out a £2k doorstep loan for Christmas not giving any thought to how and when they would pay it back!
A universal basic income would have to be subsidised by the best earners in society, who already pay the most! Someone earning an average of £50k per year over their working life will pay £614k in tax and NI! That's nearly 4 times the amount of the NMW earner! But they still only get £185 a week state pension!
Someone who has never paid NI or tax can have £16k in savings and still claim state benefits at the age of 66 to the amount of £293 per week! And that's with a conservative government!
Very unfair on the taxed at source earners from NMW, medium, high and very high earners! The government should free up earners money so they can save for their retirement and stop taking high taxes from all earners to pay for the government! Catch 22 really!
Roger Alexander
Ty Warncken, Money is created out of thin air and used to be printed into existence to represent the amount of gold that was kept in the bank It is legally called 'currency' and bank notes are called promissory notes that is another way of saying I.O.U.'s. This has evolved over the decades into a system described in a parliamentary debate
... .
This makes all of your arithmetic redundant as there is no set value for the work that is put in to create each unit of currency.
Automation and computerisation has created a situation in which all tasks that used to be considered work are now being done by machines that consume energy and require little maintenance.
Capitalism acknowledges 'ownership' of capital assets such as these machines and the factories that they function in and even the land on which they stand.
This produces an economic problem because the owners cannot possibly consume all of the products of the machines and therefore the owners need customers with currency to keep the system going.
Once we have balanced supply and demand we realise that there is a saturation point at which it is in the advantage of the owners to destroy property and murder people on an industrial scale by manufacturing weapons.
All of the numbers and gobbledygook of economy are a smoke screen to keep the population in fear of debt and sudden death.
I am in my 84th year and a practicing scientist (that means I am still learning and teaching) so I have the privilege of first hand witness of this social evolution and all the matters I mention in my rant above.
I hope this helps you to understand the present situation.

Ty Warncken
Roger Alexander alright old timer! I don't think Apple want to "destroy property and murder people on an industrial scale" because they sell iPhones!

Money and economics as always been around! Ancient civilisations use different forms of currency as well as metals, gems and trade!

The government, socialist or capitalist, want the economic to keep running and over the next hundred years we're gonna see a population decline, not because of war but because of birth rate.

Automation, again, has been happening for centuries! Printing press, sewing machines, the electric light bulb! Maybe we should have stopped all that progress so the lamplighters could keep their jobs?! Mental!

The complexities of progress, automation and economics aside, a basic income is not an answer to anything! People, poor and rich, make silly decisions with money and end up losing it! Some people make good decisions with money and end up making more.

Having the "privilege of first hand witness" doesn't mean anything, you've had 84 years so hopefully you've saved some of your I.O.U's should you need them!

Being a self confessed "scientist" also means nowt! Science is a scalable field, which means MONEY!! you can buy a study from a institution if you're willing to front the I.O.U's! And some big organisation have done so and skewed "science" for gain!

What would happen if the government dished out a UBI and people just saved it? What if only a small percentage went back into the economy? That would be a disaster!

Simple fact! Life's a struggle! You need to work hard at something to make some I.O.U's! You need to plan for your own and your families future, make some sacrifices to reduce the struggling in life and none of that is achieved by an UBI.


Roger Alexander
The owners and investors of Apple want a free lunch, something for nothing, payment for just being rich and doing nothing to create wealth. If they are entitled to something for nothing why are the people putiing dead chickens in boxes who might have the same qualifications and be willing to do something for monetary reward?

I have worked in a factory as well as you.

Money and economics has not always been around.

Ancient civilisations who lived in peace shared the products of their efforts and fuctioned very efficiently.

Metals were developed as utilities and gems were used as decoration.

Populations decline when citizens chose not to have children for whatever reason.

Automation, again, has not been happening for centuries, it increased exponentially in the past 20 years! This has allowed society to distribute wealth to people like Stephen Hawking who lived for over 50 years after having a totally debilitating condition. The idea of keeping such people alive is the opposite to being mental. The idea of eliminating lamplighters (who were people) because someone invented light switches is not as sensible as paying them a livng wage for whatever they chose to do with their time. Mental? I think not.

A basic income is one possible answer when the rich do not know what to do with their money!

Having the "privilege of first hand witness" doesn't mean anything, you've had 84 years so hopefully you've saved some of your I.O.U's should you need them! It has proved impossible for me to save any money or to continue ownership of anything because the laws in the UK are designed to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

"Being a self confessed "scientist" also means nowt! Science is a scalable field, which means MONEY!! you can buy a study from a institution if you're willing to front the I.O.U's! And some big organisation have done so and skewed "science" for gain!"

Being a scientist means that I acknowledge that I am still learning and my 'big picture' of my existence includes the understanding that money that is not a token of value is worthless and that saving it is pointless when cheats can declare it worthless. I have had insurance with companies that have gone bust and my premiums disappeared overnight. In Germany between the world wars a barrow load of money was only worth a loaf until national SOCIALISM took over and you know where that led!

"What would happen if the government dished out a UBI and people just saved it? What if only a small percentage went back into the economy? That would be a disaster!"

Roger Alexander This is exactly what is happening now to the rich. Hedge funds, private equity funds, derivatives, and all of the words used confuse the public are ways to 'save money' and preserve the power of those who have acquired it. Have you not noticed that banks are offering 6% interest and charging 20% interest? "Simple fact! Life's a struggle!" Wrong, life is wonderful and I am blessed with every day I wake up.
"You need to work hard at something to make some I.O.U's!" What for?
"You need to plan for your own and your families future, make some sacrifices to reduce the struggling in life and none of that is achieved by an UBI." This is strange advice to a person of my age as I have nothing to sacrifice but much information to share. I painted a mural in Brazil and that is on line at the following link if you would like to look at it. My Graffiti The science that I am teaching to engineers, professors, technicians and a couple of PhD students is on line at the following link. Pipeline-Corrosion-Control.com
I hope your life is as successful and mine is.
Ty Warncken
Roger Alexander you've clearly been given bad financial advice!
Apple have invested millions into the development of their product! Why are they more popular than Nokia? Is surmise that it because they made a better product through innovation and hard work. Doesn't sound like a free lunch to me! People aren't forced to buy from Apple there are other mobile phone providers!

Roger Alexander
Apple is a "group of warm bodies working together for a common aim." This is how it is described in UK company law. The money they have made is through having their product manufactured in the far east with cheap labour and selling at top price in the west through advertising. Apple has not put any value into the Iphone, they have taken a lot of money from the purchasers and used this money to repeat the trick over and over again.
So Apple have not invested millions in the development of their product they have put together the development of others. I develop software and configure hardware to do what I require and you can see this on my website, that I code myself. The people that use my technology specialise in the control of corrosion to networks of pipelines that transport the energy required to make Iphones work and enable us to discuss all this here and now.

Ty Warncken
And I can assure you, when I packed chickens I didn't work with anyone who was qualified to design, engineer, manufacture and take to market the iPhone!

Roger Alexander
Did you ask them? and why were you working with them?
Ty Warncken
No ancient civilisation has ever lived in "peace" hence why most of them died out! There have always been rich and poor and a multitude of levels in between.

Roger Alexander
People die out in wars and thrive in peace because wars are all about killing each other and destroying infrastructure. Peace results from agreements and cooperation and the rich rewarding the poor for their endeavours. If society is arranged that the poor can never benefit from their hard work a financial bubble is created that brings the whole system into collapse. In capitalism this happens every 7 to 10 years at the end of which major changes are made.
Quantitative easing was used to overcome the collapse of 2008 and Covid, then the Ukraine war are being used to try to overcome the collapse of 2018.

Ty Warncken
As someone who is training engineers and scientists your adding to the issues of automatisation! Stop training engineers and scientist who develop, design and then sell the machines that you say will replace humans!

Being a scientist doesn't make a person better than another! And from what you're saying a chicken packer should get the same salary as a scientist working on cancer research? Mad! But I suppose that's where the phrase "Mad Scientist" comes from!

Pauline Simpson
If Rich folks payed as much tax as the poorer that would balance out!!!!!

Ty Warncken

Pauline Simpson can you define rich? Is £80k a year rich?

Ty Warncken

Pauline Simpson additionally the 80k earner pays more than 8 time the tax and national insurance but still only get the same entitlement to state pension as a minimum wage earner. If a worker averages £80k over a 40 year working life they will pay ov… See more

Jackie Lederer

Ty Warncken
,To the few it is peanuts. To the many many it is rich beyond their dreams. As to tax I expect you pay more tax than million/billionaires as we have no choice and do not employ people to enable us to evade/avoid tax.

Ty Warncken

Jackie Lederer you need to be clearer in what you're trying to say? Someone who earns £40k is rich compared to someone who earns £20k and someone who earns £20k is rich to someone earning £10k!
We have a percentage tax system dependent on what a pers… See more

Roger Alexander

Ty Warncken
Without someone to put the chickens in the box the capitalist would not make ANY profit. The same with every worker in the chain. In addition percentages taxation is just a smoke screen the same as percentages wages and salaries. % of nothing is still nothing.

Ty Warncken

Roger Alexander for a scientist you make no sense, I didn't own the chickens, the box, the factory, didn't have the skill to butcher the chicken, didn't own any of the equipment to run the assembly line, didn't put in any investment, didn't work on the business model etc, I just turned up put chickens in boxes and got paid. I got that job because most people felt it beneath them or didn't want to do the job, was easier to just claim job seekers at the time!
For someone who doesn't believe in the value of money why are you training engineers? I mean the average salary for an engineer is £50k! Those rich engineers hogging their money! Doing nothing to help society! I mean come on how ridiculous!
And as a scientist you genuinely believe that the skill you've developed is worth the same as someone who hasn't taken the time to develop a skill but just puts something in a box? Maybe Drs should be on a lower wage? I mean they average £90k year! Maybe we can take some of their money and give it to the chicken packer, and if the Dr wants to leave his profession we can force them to stay and work?
And as for your comment of % of nothing is still nothing that only works for people that don't earn anything, thank god majority of people don't think like you, otherwise we wouldn't have a skilled work force because Drs, nurses, cleaners, shopkeepers, police officers, social workers, scientists, engineers all pay into this system so the people that CAN'T work have something to fall back on.
You're also using the internet, I take it on an internet enabled device, I mean surly purchasing that device from a company such as Apple I hypocritical isn't it? You've said companies like Apple want to cause mass murder on an industrial scale!

Roger Alexander

You were a robot putting chickens in boxes, a non thinking wage slave.
I am not training engineers to create money out of thin air. I am training them to use the laws of nature to add value to the whole of society including you.
Without the chicken packers the Dr's and engineers would not eat and without the engineers and Dr's the packers could not subsist.
It is true that some people cannot 'work' but that does not mean they have no value. Stephen Hawking could not work but added to your life.
I have not said that companies like Apple want to cause mass murder so do not lie about what I have said.
This page is about DEBT and how legal currency is created as debt in which the citizens are FORCED to believe and therefore controlled by an illusion.
This illusion is now being exposed and Blockchain technology is providing another system that is controlled by an adding machine that is open to the people of the world.
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